The Classics

Stories for the SSHG Awards

2009-10-03T02:25:13Z

Hi everyone,

I figured I would post all my drabbles/little stories that are eligable to help with the list.

My stories are on OWL, TPP and Ashwinder.

Under 10,000

Snape's Profound Question/Understanding Apples/Gathering Facts series:
Seperately posted but follow this order.
Snape's http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=12261

Understanding http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=12340

Gathering http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=12501

Drabbles:

Hope http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=12334

Warmth http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=12590

To be Late (100X4) http://www.thepetulantpoetess.com/viewstory.php?sid=13179

Best to Everyone this weekend etc!

Fic Rec

2009-09-20T17:46:05Z

Okay, I think I'm slow on the uptake but anyone who hasn't already should go right now and read Being Hermione Granger by Amphotera.

In my opinion, so far, it's one of those stories that is just written so carefully and intimitally. I appreciate her characterization of Hermione as a girl exploring her flaws and talents and her confusion over Snape. Which brings me to how beautiful she writes Snape.

There are some scenes... the bookstore scene... the musings on masculinity...the unicorn scene...Hogsmeade trips... the side plots...

I'm really wondering how the author will finish her story. And I hope she continues to update.

Enough of me waxing poetic, go read if you haven't and if you have than yay. :D

Curious

2009-08-31T02:39:03Z

Curious: Favorite story(ies)of ss/hg you've read old and new? Ones that were more "pg-13" or had little of the above that rating stuff?
I'm kinda looking for something to read. But I do prefer a Hermione in school setting. I just find the dynamics interesting as well as Hogwarts magic and faculty interaction.

So drop me a line... Even an older story that perhaps I've forgotten.

Because otherwise I may just have to go back and reread Pet Project for the tenth time, or Second Life, or Silvering Divide .... :P

Fanfiction Explorations

2009-08-13T03:40:33Z

Whenever I get a craving for a certain type of ss/hg story I post here because I know that if any people know where the stories are it's you guys.

Some of my favorite ss/hg stories are ones where there is a lot more to the story than romance (though I love the romance). I really love when Hermione's at school, but the story goes into maybe the faculty or school politics or outsite politics (like how the Order works or the magical government). I just find it fascinating because you take regular aspects and mix it with magic and it's just so interesting. I love when stories really explore the Harry Potter World...

So I was wondering if any of you know a story (stories) where this is the case?

I hope you're all doing well too. :D

Snape's Favorite Book

2009-07-29T17:11:06Z

Hi everyone,

So I received this prompt request from magikofeden. I thought it was a really great idea and decided to write a drabble for her. The drabble references A Tale of Two Cities by Charles Dickens. I think that literature is open-ended and, therefore, a drabble referencing it would also be the same. Having said this, I hope you enjoy it. It's pending at the TPP as well.

~oOo~

Two voices in Snape's head.
Because a hero of fiction preceded him.
And what is not realer than fiction?
For fiction results from life.
And the whole time he felt these words imprint on his very humanity; They were the oxygen that left his lungs with each breath, they were his muscles for motion, and the blood from his heart.
"I am the Resurrection and the life, saith the Lord: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die"
And the guilt for his life was gone.

~oOo~

fic rec

2009-06-03T15:52:56Z

So I just read that one-shot by Snarkyroxy with Hermione in her third year and what may have happened if she met Snape after quitting Divination.

It was wonderful. I hope you've all read it. :)

And it's made me wonder if there are other good stories that give a new spin of Hermione in school and her interactions with Snape without romance. I mean, she was there for six years and in those years there had to be more interactions. She was a student and he was her teacher.

It's hard not to want the romance as well, but I'm just wondering if any of you have read any good stories that fall into this category.

Paperback vs. Hardcover

2009-05-11T04:43:20Z

Hello fellow book lovers!

Okay, so in my mind a battle has been going on for several years now: Hardcover vs. Paperback.

Why has it been provoked?

I don't know if you guys have noticed, but Barnes and Noble mostly carries paperbacks. In addition, Terry Pratchett (one of my favorite writers) for some reason has his books as mass market paperbacks with no hardcovers in stock. I have bought some of his hardcovers used... But I do find it very odd that someone as successful as him would only be selling books in paperback. I would love some wisdom on that one. "sigh"

But I was wondering what you guys thought about the different formats, because I've been trying to come to terms with paperbacks. They are cheaper (I recently bought two Pratchett books from the bookstore in paperback because I really wanted to read and I wanted them -some form of them at least- on my bookshelf). I figure I could always buy them in hardback later on from some used bookstore.

I've just been obessing a bit when I'm reading one of the books because I don't want to crease the spine... I hate the idea of the glue decaying and the cover bending. "sigh"

I don't know, I'm hoping maybe you guys have some positives to say about paperbacks that could get me on the bandwagon. You know, able to accept the format and just enjoy the damn words. "laughs"

Harry Potter Canon Question

2009-04-27T02:32:51Z

So I was watching this show on the history channel about the tracking of Tsunamis. The scientists talked about plate tectonics, rock layers, new tracking devices etc.

It just got me thinking about how when we go to school we learn about actual science and history and math and literature... And we also touch upon other cultures within these topics sometimes (hopefully).

But what about Hogwarts/Magic students? They learn the subjects that we read about in the HP books; the topics that are relevant to their world and their discoveries etc...

But what about plain science, math, history, literature? I guess the important muggle discoveries that have clearly uncovered important perspectives and developments. Do they not learn about the Renaissance, or the world wars? Or what about the Pythagorean Theorum? Or what about climate change, the environment, or how the body works?

I guess magic tends to defy certain things like physics maybe, but what about all the other things that are human history, or that affect the earth that both muggle and magical live on? And going back to physics, what about the solar system though? That's a constant development that affects muggle and magical I would think.

I was just thinking...

My First

2009-04-05T16:17:56Z

Hi Everyone!

Happy April. I hope it has started nicely for everyone. I also want to give my best to bluestocking79 who has had a tough week with not feeling well and then the fire incident. Best wishes.

I also wanted to show off this:

It's so pretty! My favorite color happens to be green as well. I have to say that it makes me rather excited as it's my first banner. :D Wisdom was the first story I successfully wrote for SS/HG. Thank you TPP.

Opinion

2009-03-12T00:58:59Z

I need your opinion:

So you know, you gotta love Haldir from LoTR (the book and the movie since he has such a prescence in it). I know that some of you don't know who I'm talking about "laughs" (I didn't either really until recently). But, he's a great character and symbolizes so many things that can be admired. He's one of those characters to think about and even use in life. If you know what I mean...

Anyways, done with the thoughtful part!

But I would like your opinion on which icon you like best.

1. 2. 3. 4.

These are what I could find so far.

There's something about elves... :D

cflower3 @ 2009-02-17T17:57:00

2009-02-18T00:58:47Z

Hey everyone,

I wanted to show you guys beaweasley2's illustration of my story Of Winds and Wisdom.

It's really just putting a smile on my face.

Like I told her, one of my favorite aspects is Hermione. I love that's she's wearing comfortable clothing and looks like very approachable and relatable in her features.

I hope you guys like it too!

Have a good week.

cflower3 @ 2009-01-04T20:49:00

2009-01-05T03:52:43Z

I posted my first drabble at GrangerSnape100! For his birthday present...I couldn't resist!

It's posted also at OWL as well. (Need to post it at TPP and Ash.)

It's surprising to think I've actually written some stuff, and a new chapter of something this past few days. Not really a bad surprise though.

http://owl.tauri.org/stories.php?sid=8340

Having said that, have a good week everyone!

cflower3 @ 2009-01-01T20:59:00

2009-01-02T04:19:52Z

For harmony_bites who wanted a Hermione centric genfic that incorporated a Hogwarts letter. This is actually 100 words! I attempted present tense since The Silvering Divide inspired me. :D I hope you like it. Any terrible grammar mistakes please tell me.

Heart Flutter

Hermione, catching up on some pleasure reading, is lazily swinging her left leg to the gentle rhythm of summer.

In her lack of concentration, (her leg bumps the bed spread) she sees the Hogwarts owl.

She opens the window, and sweet-smelling wind gently moves some strands of hair sticking to her face.

Hermione has nothing to give the owl, and gives the bird a sheepish shrug. As she reads her heart flutters.

Hogwarts letters make her heart flutter. Each letter is a reminder that the past year -so easily outlandish in the haze of summer- is not a dream at all.

cflower3 @ 2009-01-01T18:05:00

2009-01-02T01:12:33Z

Okay so below is the "drabble" I promised for toffeeliz . This was the prompt:

Color: Blue
Keyword: Apple
Pairing: ss/hg

I hope you like it! It's definitely different than how I usually write. Also, I'm not going to lie...grammar isn't my strong point, and my MS word is not working. I used the spellcheck on LJ and reread it. I'm thinking of actually posting this on TPP of something, so if you see any mistakes please tell me. Er...nicelessly. :D

EDIT: Sent it in to TPP! (crosses fingers...I read it over several times.)

Snape's Profound Question

Snape thought there was nothing like biting into a nice, juicy apple, as he used one, long, pale finger to wipe away a drop of apple juice from his chin. He loved every kind of apple: Macintosh, the tart green ones and Golden Delicious

He smirked slowly, especially the Golden Delicious

It was a sunny day at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Indeed. The sun was shining brightly, sharing the sky amiably with a few wisps of cloud. It seemed that for today, at least, the sun and clouds could share the sky in peace.

Snape sighed in contentment as he looked at the gleaming, half-eaten apple in his hand
Apples reminded him of a perfect Earth
They were round...like the Earth
And they had layers...like the Earth.
But every good apple had a nice crunchy skin and a nice soft second layer.
It was perfect harmony, something that the Earth lacked.

Snape understood the inharmonious nature of Earth well. In his most wacked out moments (as he liked to define them), he would play around with apple metaphors, and reflect on why apples came in red, green, and yellow, but not blue

Why not a blue apple?

That was the question that haunted his thoughts the most nowadays. Not the time the Dark Lord was going to call him for his services. Not when the next teacher meeting was. Not what was for dinner. And certainly not if he was going to make it out of life in one piece.

He found his question profound. As profound and as innate as those other fundamental questions:

What is the meaning of life?

(He took another bite out of his apple.)

What is happiness?

(And another.)

Why not a blue apple?

(And another...finished!)

Using his wand, flicking his wrist, Snape erased the eaten apple out of existence.

He glared at the amazingly large stack of student essays needing to be graded. Raising his eyebrow at the useless matter, he huffed in protest, and turned his head to the window to look outside.

For the life of him he couldn't understand why nature couldn't muster up enough energy to create blue apples. A nice dark, blue apple. Just like the color of his night table.

Yes, Severus Snape, the Potion's Master, who oozed Slytherin appeal (the amount of appeal he oozed was debatable) was a blue man. His favorite color was blue, thank-you-very-much, and he made sure that his one refuge, his room, was blue too. His night table was a dark shade of blue, while his walls (if you looked quickly) held a tint of blue. Even his plush carpeting was composed of not enough thin, blue strands to make anyone think the floor was truly blue, but enough to make anyone swear they saw something...blueish.

Was this abnormally weird? He didn't know. He figured it was only natural to be a bit fucked up from all the spying he had to do.

~oOo~

Snape scowled as he held his pristine, red apple at eye level. The paleness of his fingers made a striking contrast with the deep red of the fruit. It was lunch time in the Great Hall, and Snape couldn't help the occasional mutter that came forth from his lips.

He wanted a damn, blue apple!

Dumbledore cautiously turned his head to stare at the young man seated next to him. He found it disturbing that someone normally so controlled was letting himself, in public, stare rather intensely at an apple.

Why not just eat it?

Dumbledore didn't understand Snape's plight of course. Afterall, he was a Gryffindor through and through and, therefore, loved the color red as much as he was supposed to love the color red...according to the House Guidebook.

Not coincidentally, Hermione Granger was also staring at Snape. But instead of looking to her right, she was looking up at the Head Table.

There was something oddly personal about Snape's intense concentration on his apple. He never gave her the chance to ponder his thoughts. He was always too quick to insult her, too able to embarrass her, too good at making her feel small. But in this perfect moment, she thought she perceived a man.

Who happened to either love or hate apples.

A small, affectionate smile graced the girl's lips.

The smile startled her though, and reflexively she put a hand to cover her mouth.

A sinking feeling made it's way into her mind. She was curious about the man...and that was okay.

But she also wanted to understand the man...and that probably wasn't.

MeMe

2009-01-01T18:15:42Z

I don't know if this is a good idea but...

perhaps it will be fun and I got sucked into it by requesting a drabble myself. :P And I made the amount of people three. hee.

To the first 3 people who comment, I will write a 100-word drabble.

You must give me:
~ a fandom option: in my case, Harry Potter,
~ a character (for genfic) or a pairing (if you want a little romance) I really can only do Snape or Hermione for a genfic or ss/hg for a romance. It's what I know. :)
~ a keyword to use in the drabble or a color or other prompt.

In return, you must post this meme yourself and take on the first 3 requests.

LOTR

2008-12-02T03:02:59Z

So I want to laugh for even typing about this topic...but...

when I get curious about something I always get really determined to satisfy the curiosity. Does anyone know a good LOTR fanfiction site or story? I'm interested more in Legolas because of his enigmatic character and Elf culture. And yeah, I'm a romantic so if there are any good Leg/OC stories out there... I'm interested.

I know we're all obsessive HP people, but I figured I would ask since there are so many really terrible....terrible stories out there. I don't have a lot of patience I've decided for them. :-) I think I've gotten worse! hee.

Anyway, have a good week.

Snape Indulgence...or...

2008-10-26T00:46:55Z

The subject sort of says it all. I just had this curiosity about everyone's favorite Snape icons.

I would love if you all would share your favorite ones with me. I love a good Snape icon to laugh at or think about. Actually, any other icon you really love too now that I'm thinking about it would be fun.

All it takes is a little copy and paste! And if you're feeling polite a little "hello!". :P

cflower3 @ 2008-09-06T21:59:00

2008-09-07T05:01:38Z

Hi everyone,

Okay, so I did it!

I made the community. I hope this works better for everyone. I'm not sure exactly how to work it all. I know it needs members...

I figure that if this doesn't work I can just delete it and say "at least it was tried."

I hope this is a bit easier because now you can post whenever you want and just go with it (once you're a member).

http://community.livejournal.com/sshgclassics/

cflower3 @ 2008-07-30T15:48:00

2008-07-30T22:52:10Z

Hey everyone.

EDIT: Once again thank you for all the references. I've found some amazing icons that I can use. When I look at my userpic page, I smile. :)

I have this question...

In your opinion, which places are the best places to get good icons? I've explored some really sublime sites, but I was just wondering if there are some I'm missing.

I know about Dork_Icons, Iconseeyou, Eyesthatslay...

Additional Discussion: What Makes a Classic?

2008-07-21T15:25:07Z

Part Two!

So this is the second additional discussion....you can probably see from the title. :)

I'm going to copy Elise_Wanderer's post on this subject below:

~oOo~

That confidence is the first hallmark of a true classic, I believe. It allows you to surrender to the writer, trusting that things won't suddenly be badly phrased or not well thought out or OOC or will make you feel as though you ended up wasting your time. It isn't just good writing, though that's where it begins. The fact that there are betas and mods involved helps enormously, but there's still the question of whether or not the writer understands how to use the language effectively.

Plot also is important in determining a classic. If the story sounds both slightly familiar and blindingly original at the same time, you may be encountering something worth returning to.

That's really the heart of any good SSHG for me, any scenario that fits the "Marriage of True Minds" model. It's what I love in Jane Austen stories like "The Taming of the Shrew" and other classics of literature--two people who may be a little too smart for their own good, who are clever and a bit prickly, and who find their match, someone who can really appreciate all their qualities, even the ones that other people don't particularly like or value in them.

~oOo~

The main thing I wanted to highlight is about how confidence is very important to have in order for the story to be a classic. I think what you said is a very good way of putting it. I always find even with the best books that in the end, you felt satisfied and taken care of by the author. Trust is very important with a classic. That's why it can be so comforting to go back and read them, because there is that trust that the author is doing true Right by the characters and the world in which they live in. Every classic takes time to make Snape truly multifaceted and able to evolve as a human being. Same with Hermione....and a lot of times, other characters too (just a bit more in the background). Magic is used thoughtfully. Everything is thoughtful really. There's a real relationship that is formed between the reader and the author and the story. A classic becomes some form of literature almost. You can keep on going back to it because what you find about the human condition is so insightful (in some way),you can just relate over and over again. The author does this.

The author gives pathos ...and hm, actually, also ethos and logos. You have logic which plot needs ...some understanding that everything was thought-out, even interesting parts are based in provoking information. Pathos, emotion, which gives you the relationships with the characters because they are thoughtfully written as people. And then ethos...which I think can kind of go into the trust factor. Trusting the author, feeling you can.... letting your mind just become fully involved.

Having said that, I also agree with the "Marriage of True Minds" model. I think a classic of SSHG is the best when it shows two people finding each other. And not just finding each other, but growing as people, learning, apart and together. When you can trust the author to think about this, and be passionate about this because they love the characters too enough to bring in, I guess, humanity (insight, human condition, interesting plot for the characters to relate to), you have a lovely classic.

I think you will all find some interesting conversation starters with this post and the other. I for one can't wait to go comment now!

The Fire and the Rose

2008-07-21T15:21:21Z

It was really great because I woke up this morning to an awesome discussion opener by Elise_Wanderer. I was thinking of how to open the discussion (with Before the Dawn I made my own review of sorts first), and I figured it out. There is so much fantastic discussion and insight I think from Elise_Wanderer's review that I'm just going to copy it to this post and make it truly the opener.

She also makes some good points about what makes a classic, but I'm going to make a separate post for that discussion just to have a little bit of organization. I plan on copying those parts of her review into that post.

But anyway.....

~oOo~

I first read this terrific piece last summer when I first discovered this treasure trove of great material. I believe it might have been the second SSHG epic I read, after the utterly astonishing "The Other Side of Darkness" (both the original and the sequel). I was so blown away by OSD that I went looking for more and found F&R almost at once. It (and its sequel) was a great followup to OSD, because it is so much lighter and brighter by comparison, yet it has the same kind of confidence to its writing.

F&R is, first of all, well written. From its opening paragraph it is accomplished, amusing, and demonstrates a writer who knows her (or in this case, their) way around sentence structure, style, use of vocabulary, and narrative rhythm.

F&R takes the basic challenge of forcing Severus and Hermione to interact long enough to get to know one another and then to fall in love and turns it very neatly on its ear. It very believably (believability in a magical world has unique conventions but conventions nonetheless) presents a situation in which the two not only are stuck with each other until the mandrakes are ready but in which they are also literally forced to look at the world through the other's eyes while keeping what has happened a secret from everyone except Dumbledore.

The authors then use this premise not only to craft a credible getting-to-know-you story but also manage to have a great deal of fun in the process. They also do this while keeping the characters recognizable. Hermione is bossy, smart, a little socially klutzy, stubborn, brave, and able to adapt rather well to the craziness of the circumstances, while Severus is pissed off, annoyed, snarky, brilliant, courageous, isolated--and turns out to be able to act enough like a swotty teenaged girl so that no one is the wiser. The fact that they must keep Voldemort from finding out what's happened adds an element of danger that is often an important part of this mix.

The authors also manage to get in some first-rate smut that is also pretty damn funny, as the two are forced to deal with being in someone else's body, and someone of the opposite gender to boot. The scenes in which each realizes the, um, educational opportunity this situation presents are really quite wonderfully done. They also serve as part of the process in which each is forced to get to know the other and comes to appreciate the qualities that make them so special to those of us who love this 'ship.

For my money, smut isn't a necessary element for classic status, but genuine, heartfelt romance is. If the writers can then add some truly *hawt* scenes, well, I'm not going to turn 'em away!

I think the length of the story also lends it classic status. F&R is a huge undertaking, requiring a great deal of thought in setting up the whole enterprise. One of the things that is important in SSHG Land is the fact that these are two people who, in canon, have very little individual interaction or any reason to get to know each other. They need both a situation that forces them together and the time to marinate, so the real classics are long. They have to be. F&R forces them to keep trying to find another solution to their predicament, one they will have to find together, and credibly explains why it will most likely take six months before they can return to their own bodies. It then lets them take time to get beyond the initial stages of mutual antagonism, annoyance, and frustration to begin to appreciate one another and then to truly care about the other person.

F&R has all of these elements. I reread it again recently, enjoying it just as much the second time round. That is one more hallmark of a classic. If it bears repeating, it gets my nomination. F&R definitely bears repeating.

I enjoyed reading the point about believability in a magical world. It is extremely important because the magical world is indeed, a <i>world</i>. People are supposed to live in it, and it's human nature to have explanations so... for a believable story, you need some logic, even "twisted" logic.

F&R definitely has this which is part of what makes the story a classic. Thoughtfulness is key.

I loved the descriptions of the characters because that's exactly what I mean by characterization. Making the characters human and presenting ideas and human conditions with them. Taking time with the characters because you truly are emotionally attached. The authors of the story definitely had this.

Humor is always very important. The story had an abundance of this. The whole idea of switching bodies is rather funny in many ways. And the problems each person faces are very human, funny, and interesting because they are oddly relatable...just in a different frame of reference.

Another reason this story is a classic is the plot. The story, the switching of people, is very unique. Not only was it unique, but it was thought-out. The authors cared about all aspects of the plot they created, intertwining all the emotions and topics.

The length of the story really showcases the depth of energy that went into making this plot believable and emotionally relatable. I liked how Snape and Hermione didn't really get together until the second story. Time was used in the story because the characters were made into real people, and people need time.

I also love genuine romance. And what makes it so much sweeter is when the characters have to grow as people before it can happen. They need to have their journey, which we can all relate to in some shape or form. For the characters, if gives them time to see each other in a new light, by having them work through their preconceived notions. Sign of growth and broader perspective.

One example is when Snape realizes that Hermione does have trouble with her peers. I find this part to be excellent in showing the characters journey to understanding and connection. It shows how we all tend to assume things because of our past experiences...it can seem safer to do this. But when we challenge ourself to rethink why we feel a certain way, we can be better off, better people. So human condition again. An always relatable human idea.

cflower3 @ 2008-07-02T19:05:00

2008-07-03T02:24:11Z

A Reference Guide for the Additional Discussions of the Classics

(In no particular order)

Additional Discussion the First: Why do you like the pairing?

Comment Thread: http://cflower3.livejournal.com/1086.html

Spoilers: The complete series

The Pairing Unraveled

What MoreThanSirius Said:

I'd say I fell in love with the pairing because of the incredible talents of the authors it attracts. It's not easy to get these two together in a believable and in character relationship. It takes work and SSHG authors are amazingly inventive. From a personal standpoint, I always fall in love with the brains. My first literary love was Sherlock Holmes. So naturally, the brilliant Potions Master and the Know-It-All just works for me as a pairing.

I love the details of it all. I adore the great lengths that Snape fans go to to show their love.

What Cflower Said:

You know, I've heard that the best chefs can come from poor places because they need to make something magical from more challenging products (poorer cuts of meat). So to compare fanfiction writers to chefs...the SS/HG takes work and insight and perseverance.

The challenge and then when you can execute it, it is beautiful. It's our canon... heh. It's what we like to challenge our self with because --I don't know-- we see the beautiful potential. Like the person who first thought of putting peanut butter and jelly together...the beautiful potential!

I also like how authors can work with their personalities. The nuances of Snape's sarcasm and manners, and Hermione's values and thought process. What's the patterns? What's their real person that we don't fully see in the books?

What Bambu Said:

There are some extremely good writers in fandom.

What Ozratbag Said:

I love taking apart the characters piece by piece as I then (try) and create a whole new scenario for them. I know it will never be canon, but it's extrapolating from the known and unknown canon, that continues to fascinate me all these years later.

Additional Discussion the Second: What is your preference in setting?

Comment Thread: http://cflower3.livejournal.com/1086.html

Spoilers: The complete series

The Preference Unraveled

What Octavia_B Said:

My SS/HG experience has been confined to the old "classics" which are mostly pre-HBP. I find I generally prefer ones where Hermione has left school as there is something a little squicky about school-age ones. But on the other hand, as two of my favourites are The Fire and the Rose and Vulgarweed's Ravenous series I guess I'm fibbing!

What Ozratbag Said:

[In response to Octavia_B] I think, when it comes to those two authors and stories, all of us are fibbing.

I also prefer it when Hermione is no longer at school, because I think it opens up a whole new potential for developing the dynamics of the relationship.

What MoreThanSirius Said:

Generally I prefer a post-Hogwarts relationship. That's not really because of the student teacher dynamic. It's more because a mature Hermione out on her own is more interesting to me. It opens up a lot more possibilities in terms of location, plot and how the relationship develops. After a while, the whole sneaking around so he doesn't get fired and she doesn't get expelled scenario gets boring. There are exceptions to every rule. Stories that are well written trump the post-Hogwarts preference. I also have no objection to Hogwarts itself, as Professor Granger works just fine for me.

You may notice that a number of the stories I listed are during Hogwarts for Hermione. [See comment thread to view the list] Those are the type of works I was talking about. Extraordinary stories that suck you in regardless of your general preferences. As for post Hogwarts stories, I like Hermione in all kinds of professions. Unspeakable, Potions Mistress, Researcher, Librarian, Book Store Owner, Healer, etc.

What Kribu Said:

I'm pretty much fine with any of those scenarios, as long as the story is good.

I have to admit to a soft spot for school age Hermione stories (erm, preferably seventh year, or at least with her being of age though!), but they're not easy to get "right". And I do prefer it when the two have been getting closer as friends first, and genuine feelings rising out of that, as I just can't see Snape simply having an affair with a random student. (Speaking of classics, the best example of that sort of story for me is Hayseed's Ordinary People.)

What Cflower Said:

Post-Hogwarts relationship can allow many more possibilities for many reasons. If there is interesting plot, location, and relationship/character development in that kind of story it is really lovely reading. Really insightful reading. Whether it's post Hogwarts or in Hogwarts the story just has to be satisfying.

I do have soft spot for Hermione in school, but of age if any romance happens.

Depending on how the author handles the school age it can be interesting and plausible, or in need of the reader pushing the back button.

Additional Discussion the Third: What makes a classic?
Comment Thread: http://cflower3.livejournal.com/3217.html#cutid1
Spoilers: The complete series

Classics Unraveled:

What Elise_Wanderer Said:
That confidence is the first hallmark of a true classic, I believe. It allows you to surrender to the writer, trusting that things won't suddenly be badly phrased or not well thought out or OOC or will make you feel as though you ended up wasting your time. It isn't just good writing, though that's where it begins. The fact that there are betas and mods involved helps enormously, but there's still the question of whether or not the writer understands how to use the language effectively.

Plot also is important in determining a classic. If the story sounds both slightly familiar and blindingly original at the same time, you may be encountering something worth returning to.

That's really the heart of any good SSHG for me, any scenario that fits the "Marriage of True Minds" model. It's what I love in Jane Austen stories like "The Taming of the Shrew" and other classics of literature--two people who may be a little too smart for their own good, who are clever and a bit prickly, and who find their match, someone who can really appreciate all their qualities, even the ones that other people don't particularly like or value in them.

What Cflower Said:
The main thing I wanted to highlight is about how confidence is very important to have in order for the story to be a classic. I think what you said is a very good way of putting it. I always find even with the best books that in the end, you felt satisfied and taken care of by the author. Trust is very important with a classic. That's why it can be so comforting to go back and read them, because there is that trust that the author is doing true Right by the characters and the world in which they live in. Every classic takes time to make Snape truly multifaceted and able to evolve as a human being. Same with Hermione....and a lot of times, other characters too (just a bit more in the background). Magic is used thoughtfully. Everything is thoughtful really. There's a real relationship that is formed between the reader and the author and the story. A classic becomes some form of literature almost. You can keep on going back to it because what you find about the human condition is so insightful (in some way),you can just relate over and over again. The author does this.

The author gives pathos ...and hm, actually, also ethos and logos. You have logic which plot needs ...some understanding that everything was thought-out, even interesting parts are based in provoking information. Pathos, emotion, which gives you the relationships with the characters because they are thoughtfully written as people. And then ethos...which I think can kind of go into the trust factor. Trusting the author, feeling you can.... letting your mind just become fully involved.

Having said that, I also agree with the "Marriage of True Minds" model. I think a classic of SSHG is the best when it shows two people finding each other. And not just finding each other, but growing as people, learning, apart and together. When you can trust the author to think about this, and be passionate about this because they love the characters too enough to bring in, I guess, humanity (insight, human condition, interesting plot for the characters to relate to), you have a lovely classic.

cflower3 @ 2008-06-30T20:20:00

2008-07-01T03:28:14Z

A Reference Guide for the Fanfiction Classics of Hermione Granger and Severus Snape

(In no particular order)

Classic the First: Before the Dawn

Author: SnarkyRoxy

Location: http://ashwinder.sycophanthex.com/viewstory.php?sid=10633

Comment Thread: http://cflower3.livejournal.com/835.html#cutid1
Spoilers: Half Blood Prince disregarded

The Classic Unraveled

What Bambu Said:

I happened to like that it ran the gamut of emotions, from joy to fear to grief. It was long, but it was well worth the read, and even if the chapters weren't delivered quickly, the quality of the work was worth the wait.

One of the beauties of this story is the Draco/Severus friendship -- it gave both characters depth and there is a price to pay in war, it's unbelievable that all the main characters will survive any final conflict, and Draco had been uniquely placed to be the one death (aside from Hermione and Severus) the readers would regret most. And then the injustice of the Ministry's lumping him in with the other Death Eaters was perfectly placed to show the lack of humanity in a bureaucracy.

When Draco is killed in BtD, it's heartbreaking because the character had struggled against his stereotype, grown a conscience and a back-bone and his memory was tarnished by an uncaring government. There is real injustice here, and it should hurt to read. It's part of growing a social conscience, and in many ways, it's the underlying message of this piece of work: question authority!

SnarkyRoxy used Snape's isolation and his dogged perseverance to her advantage in BtD.

It was all those human qualities -- that we can all identify with -- which made Snape understandable and likeable. SnarkyRoxy did an excellent job of making him believable.

I don't think she was as successful with Hermione, but then again, I don't think Hermione is as complex a character as Snape, so there's less to work with.

What Ozratbag Said:

I think the main thing I remember from the story is the scale of the thing. It was huge, with a great many intricate plotpoints throughout the story. I thought the development of the characters was utterly believable, with the twinned themes of redemption and hope wafting in and around each other almost continuously.

What AnnieTalbot Said:

The one thing that cemented the story for me, above all other things that I can recall, was how we saw Severus Snape in all his seasons - angry (a lot of that!), happy, trusting, suspicious, grieving, angry again - and every single one was believable; far more so than we ever saw in canon. I don't know how she did that. But she did it brilliantly.

What MoreThanSirius Said:

It's truly epic in every sense of the word.

What Cflower said:

I love the characterization of Snape; he still has his snark and sarcasm, but he is also showcased as having reasons for what he does. Some consider him in this story to be the "fanon Snape" but I think that he is actually a pretty plausible Snape. He messes up, he gets angry (lashes out at Hermione), so he is certainly not perfect and has his flaws --we see in canon that Snape can definitely get angry--, but he also is incredibly honorable and loyal in the story (with the moonfilly and respecting the animal), which is Snape the man.

Hermione I also find to be comfortably in character. I love how she isn't portrayed as perfection! She has breakdowns, doesn't always think clearly in times of great emotion

I find Before the Dawn to be well-written partly because of how the author handles Hermione still being in school. It shows Snape's morals, and Hermione actually understanding this. This gives them plausible personalities for their characters...and expands on it.

I feel that Before the Dawn is a definite classic because it shows Snape as a very multifaceted character able to have a romantic relationship and gain redemption. It has interesting plot points, and awesome magical detail which add to the overall structure of the story. It made me think about characters that I wouldn't normally think about (Draco). I also like that it doesn't move too quickly (truly epic), and has --in my opinion-- a satisfying conclusion that isn't all happy (the deaths), but certainly hopeful and realistic.

Classic the Second: The Fire and the Rose
Authors: Abby and Ann (Domina)
Location: http://www.witchfics.org/abby/
Comment Thread: http://cflower3.livejournal.com/2904.html
Spoilers: Pre-Goblet of Fire

The Classic Unraveled:

What Lillithj Said:
F&R was jointly written by Abby and Ann as an exercise. Each part was written over a week's time with the authors taking turns.

What Elise_Wanderer Said:
I first read this terrific piece last summer when I first discovered this treasure trove of great material. I believe it might have been the second SSHG epic I read, after the utterly astonishing "The Other Side of Darkness" (both the original and the sequel). I was so blown away by OSD that I went looking for more and found F&R almost at once. It (and its sequel) was a great followup to OSD, because it is so much lighter and brighter by comparison, yet it has the same kind of confidence to its writing.

F&R is, first of all, well written. From its opening paragraph it is accomplished, amusing, and demonstrates a writer who knows her (or in this case, their) way around sentence structure, style, use of vocabulary, and narrative rhythm.

F&R takes the basic challenge of forcing Severus and Hermione to interact long enough to get to know one another and then to fall in love and turns it very neatly on its ear. It very believably (believability in a magical world has unique conventions but conventions nonetheless) presents a situation in which the two not only are stuck with each other until the mandrakes are ready but in which they are also literally forced to look at the world through the other's eyes while keeping what has happened a secret from everyone except Dumbledore.

The authors then use this premise not only to craft a credible getting-to-know-you story but also manage to have a great deal of fun in the process. They also do this while keeping the characters recognizable. Hermione is bossy, smart, a little socially klutzy, stubborn, brave, and able to adapt rather well to the craziness of the circumstances, while Severus is pissed off, annoyed, snarky, brilliant, courageous, isolated--and turns out to be able to act enough like a swotty teenaged girl so that no one is the wiser. The fact that they must keep Voldemort from finding out what's happened adds an element of danger that is often an important part of this mix.

The authors also manage to get in some first-rate smut that is also pretty damn funny, as the two are forced to deal with being in someone else's body, and someone of the opposite gender to boot. The scenes in which each realizes the, um, educational opportunity this situation presents are really quite wonderfully done. They also serve as part of the process in which each is forced to get to know the other and comes to appreciate the qualities that make them so special to those of us who love this 'ship.

For my money, smut isn't a necessary element for classic status, but genuine, heartfelt romance is. If the writers can then add some truly *hawt* scenes, well, I'm not going to turn 'em away!

I think the length of the story also lends it classic status. F&R is a huge undertaking, requiring a great deal of thought in setting up the whole enterprise. One of the things that is important in SSHG Land is the fact that these are two people who, in canon, have very little individual interaction or any reason to get to know each other. They need both a situation that forces them together and the time to marinate, so the real classics are long. They have to be. F&R forces them to keep trying to find another solution to their predicament, one they will have to find together, and credibly explains why it will most likely take six months before they can return to their own bodies. It then lets them take time to get beyond the initial stages of mutual antagonism, annoyance, and frustration to begin to appreciate one another and then to truly care about the other person.

F&R has all of these elements. I reread it again recently, enjoying it just as much the second time round. That is one more hallmark of a classic. If it bears repeating, it gets my nomination. F&R definitely bears repeating.

What Cflower Said:
I enjoyed reading the point about believability in a magical world. It is extremely important because the magical world is indeed, a world. People are supposed to live in it, and it's human nature to have explanations so... for a believable story, you need some logic, even "twisted" logic. F&R definitely has this which is part of what makes the story a classic. Thoughtfulness is key.

I loved the descriptions of the characters [See Elise_Wanderer's description in the fourth paragraph.] because that's exactly what I mean by characterization. Making the characters human and presenting ideas and human conditions with them. Taking time with the characters because you truly are emotionally attached. The authors of the story definitely had this.

Humor is always very important. The story had an abundance of this. The whole idea of switching bodies is rather funny in many ways. And the problems each person faces are very human, funny, and interesting because they are oddly relatable...just in a different frame of reference.

The only aspect that I wasn't crazy about was all the smut. I admit, I'm not a fan of a lot of smut, even in well-written stories with lots of other amazing aspects. I just don't really want it. I can understand some, sex is definitely a stepping stone for two characters romantically involved. When done write, it can be very monumental for the relationship in the sense of a different level of trust. But I don't feel that you need an abundance. I think certain sexual scenes were important in the story, amazing in the story actually (like how Elise mentions the education opportunity). But just personally, I didn't need all of it. I didn't need all the switch bodied sex. I believe it is just my taste.

The plot detail which had Hermione having to be in Spy!Snape's shoes. You [See Bambu's first paragraph.] make a very fine point, indeed. There is the highlighting of the importance to grow apart and together in the relationship. The different experiences help each character see each other in a more multifaceted light, which lends to growing in perspective as individuals and then also romantic partners. Pathos is definitely important in a classic work in order to be able to relate to each character on a human level. Really, pathos, logos (in plot, even magic reliability), and ethos in the author is a good foundation for a classic perhaps.

Snape did get social redemption. [See Bambu's second paragraph.] It was a very intriguing way for Snape to put to rest some of his teenage demons; to see that he could indeed grow as a person.

I think that's also why it's a classic, it's an insightful exploration into characters as people.

What Bambu Said:
To me, The Fire and the Rose stands out above many of the early stories in that the emotional content of the subplot is woven intricately within each chapter. There is a moment in this story which will always stand out in my mind as a prime example of why this 'ship stands head and shoulders above most others: the moment Hermione returns from the Death Eater meeting and seeing her first cold-blooded murder. She is in such turmoil, and yet must return to the school and watch her classmates (for they are no longer her peers in truth) frivolously engage in teenaged mating rituals. She has truly become an island unto herself ... until Snape as Hermione joins her in the rose garden. It's an emotionally charged moment, but one which links them in a way nothing else will ever or has ever done. Only he can understand her, and now, only she can understand him. It's a masterful turning point in their relationship and in the story.

The other thing I loved about this piece was that Snape was better at living Hermione's life than she was, and that Snape had an opportunity to alter his own teenaged behavior from anti-social to something more engaged in his 'peer group.' Each of us would probably live our teenaged years more wisely were we shoved back into them.

One of the reasons for the erotica, is that it sells stories. There is also another reason it works in this piece; it's part of the coming-of-age for each of Severus and Hermione. He may be an adult, but he has been a deprived adult in many ways. In this story, each comes to grips with their own sexuality simply because they are in another's body.

I suspect the two authors were able to play off one another's strengths and expand their original concepts of their characters; the duality adding a depth to the story a single author sometimes is unable to present. Because this was the first of its kind in the 'ship, I think it set an extremely high benchmark, one which has never been surpassed I think.

I also suspect this was one of the formative stories cementing the fanon characteristics of both protagonists. It's easy to recognize individual quirks of each in many later stories, and in some ways they're repetitive because Abby and Anne carved that territory first, but then again, the seeds were planted by JKR herself in her canon. Clever authors have merely extrapolated and enhanced them.

Poll Number One

2008-06-29T18:43:16Z

EDIT: Shoot. I don't know why the poll isn't working. Sorry about this. Well, until I can fix it...perhaps you all could just comment your answers? Also, if there's another additional discussion not on the poll you like better, you can comment your idea instead.

EDIT TWO: So far The Fire and the Rose has the most votes for discussion. The second one is Ordinary People. I plan on giving people more time to comment on the poll, but I figure that the story that comes in first will be the next discussion, the story that comes in second will be the next next discussion, and so forth until we need a new poll. I plan on covering it all!
As for the additional discussion, What makes a classic? is in first place. Coincidentally you all so far have voted for that one! Haha. I like it. :)

Which classic do you want to discuss next?

Ordinary People

The Fire and the Rose

A Matter of Honor

The Buried Life

Soul Searching

When do you want a new classic discussion to be posted?

One week

Two weeks

Three weeks

several days

Which additional post do you want to discuss?

Character Study: Snape

Character Study: Hermione

What makes a classic?

Before the Dawn --Additional Discussion

2008-06-27T23:18:29Z

I thought a really great addition to the overall Before the Dawn discussion would be the whole student/teacher relationship. I know it has been discussed since like "the dawn of time" :), but I guess that's because it is one of the ultimate topics in the 'ship.

So what do you all think? Do you prefer an out of Hogwarts story? Or perhaps one where Hermione starts out at Hogwarts and then graduates and the story follows her growth? Or completely out of Hogwarts?

Another questions that Ozratbag brought up is why do you all like the pairing anyway? What drew you into it in the first place? Was it the challenge of bringing two interesting characters together after seeing that they perhaps could be?

I guess I always thought that the classic stories that could intertwine the two characters and give them proper stories were just really wonderful and beautiful. They challenged my mind and brought interesting ideas and beautiful writing. They brought and bring so much to the two characters. (And those stories also have some killer plot too! ) I guess as a book lover anyway, when I connect with a character I love to explore the possibilities that work best. For me SS/HG worked best!